龔鵬程對話海外學者第九十六期：在后現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

威廉·懷特教授（Professor William Whyte）

英國皇家歷史學會院士，牛津大學歷史學會主席。

龔鵬程教授：您好。您對教堂、大學等神圣空間的研究成果斐然。然而現代這些傳統的神圣空間都面臨失落或衰亡的情境，請問其原因是什么？是宗教、教育本身就在衰落中，還是整個社會的世俗化使然？

威廉·懷特教授：龔教授，您好。大學和教堂在其建筑方法上驚人地相似。兩者都是專注于無形的機構——無論是信仰還是思想，或是介于兩者之間的東西。然而，兩者都需要家園，而且多年來，這些家園在象征上和情感上以及在實踐上都變得很重要。

對許多教堂來說，建筑表達了關于神學的真理。對許多大學來說，建筑是闡明身份的一種手段。

然而，可以說，目前教會和大學的經驗是相當不同的。雖然大學從未建造過更大的建筑，也很少建造更多的建筑，但許多教會建筑正在被關閉、拆除或用于其他用途。在某種程度上，這確實反映了出席人數的減少。然而，在很大程度上，這也是由于禮拜場所總是太多導致的。

教堂的建造往往是為了刺激需求，而不是因為對它們有需求。它們往往是教派競爭的產物，而不是為廣大社區的真正需要服務。簡而言之，建筑的象征意義產生了大量大型、昂貴的建筑，而教會總是在努力維護這些建筑。具有諷刺意味的是，在今天，它們現在象征著宗教所面臨的挑戰。

Universities and churches are surprisingly similar in their approach to architecture. Both are institutions that focus on the intangible – whether that’s faith or thought or something in between. Yet both need homes and, over the years, those homes have become symbolically and emotionally as well as practically important. For many churches, the building expresses truths about theology. For many universities, architecture is a means of articulating identity.

It is, however, true to say that the current experience of churches and universities is rather different. While universities have never built bigger and rarely built more, many church buildings are being closed, demolished, or used for other purposes. In part, this does indeed reflect declining attendance. To a large extent, however, it is also because there were always too many places of worship.

Churches were often built to stimulate demand rather than because there was a demand for them. They were frequently the product of denominational competition instead of serving the real needs of the wider community. The symbolic importance of buildings, in short, produced a huge number of large, expensive structures that the churches always struggled to maintain. Ironically, in the present day, they now symbolise the challenges that religion faces.

龔鵬程教授：面對傳統建筑、神圣空間的衰落，現在的策略應該是什么？努力保存、呼吁恢復、新瓶舊酒、移形取神、或轉型改造以適應新社會？

威廉·懷特教授：從某些方面來說，傳統建筑從來沒有過這么好的時候。環境危機為保護建筑提供了新的推動力。對現代主義規劃者的宏偉主張的懷疑，鼓勵了許多地方對小規模、鄉土和家庭生活的回歸。這也伴隨著對古老傳統的興趣的恢復——無論是西方傳統的古典主義，還是最近在中國進行的斗拱建筑實驗。

但是，建筑總是為某一時刻而建造的——隨著時間的推移，不可避免地出現了關于建筑是否仍然適合使用的問題。有些建筑應該被保存，因為它們說明了一些重要的東西：一種開創性的技術，一種特別出色的美學，一個特別重要的設計師，一個特定歷史主題的生動例子。其他值得保存的建筑則是因為它們對鄰里關系有貢獻或有深刻的情感影響。

最大的問題是如何最好地確保它們被保存下來，而在某些情況下，這將意味著轉型的使用。有一些教堂建筑被用作餐館、商店、電影院和酒吧。有幾座教堂甚至成了攀巖中心，配有墻和安全帶供愛好者使用。

這種改造可能是敏感的，也可能不是——在某些情況下，我們不難感覺到這種變化是如此巨大，如此不敏感，以至于拆除會更親切。

然而，如果關鍵是為了保護建筑本身，那么改造是不可避免的。事實上，它是任何建筑生存的根本。

In some respects, traditional architecture has never had it so good. Environmental crisis has given a renewed impetus to preservation. A suspicion of the grand claims of modernist planners has encouraged a return to the small-scale, vernacular, and homespun in many places. This has been accompanied by a revival of interest in older traditions – be they the classicism of the western tradition or recent experiments with dougong in China.

But buildings are always built for a moment in time – and, as time moves on, so questions inevitably arise about whether a building is still fit for purpose. Some should be saved because they illustrate something important: a pioneering technique, a particularly excellent aesthetic, an especially important designer, a telling example of a particular historical theme. Others are worth preservation because they contribute to the neighbourhood or have a profound emotional effect.

The big question is how best to ensure that they are preserved, and in some cases that will mean a transformative use. There are church buildings employed as restaurants, shops, cinemas, bars. A couple have even become climbing centres, complete with walls and harnesses for enthusiasts to use. This adaptation can be more or less sensitive – and in some cases it’s not hard to feel that the change is so enormous and so insensitive that demolition would have been kinder. Yet if the key thing is the preservation of the building for its own sake, then adaption is inevitable. Indeed, it’s fundamental to the survival of any building.

龔鵬程教授：現代都市中，有許多學校甚至教會都只在一棟商圈樓層中，跟公司無異，這類建筑如何保留或創造神圣性？

威廉·懷特教授：神圣的空間不是抽象存在的東西。可以肯定的是，我們都會經歷過感覺特別的環境——無論是否是人造的。高大的山峰、深邃的洞穴、安靜而莊嚴的建筑：這些都能喚起人們的情感，并可能引發一種感覺，即我們以某種方式遇到了某種神圣的東西。

然而，人們更有能力在不那么有希望的地方找到神圣的東西。焦慮的父母在病房里祈禱；憂心忡忡的學生在考場上尋找神的幫助；生活在街頭的絕望者：所有這些都沒有更明顯的令人愉悅的提示。事實上，有些信仰傳統積極阻止精心設計的藝術和建筑，擔心它們會分散人們崇拜的真正目的——尋找上帝。對他們來說，樸素和沒有審美效果實際上是適當的宗教。

這表明，我們對神圣空間的概念不是普遍的，而是非常具體和文化上的決定。這就是為什么研究這些態度改變的時刻非常有趣，而且具有啟示意義。我的大部分工作是試圖了解人們如何能夠以如此不同的方式來理解物質世界和宗教。答案告訴我們很多他們的信息和他們身處的文化。

Sacred space is not something that exists in the abstract. To be sure, we will all have experienced environments – whether man-made or not – that feel special. Tall mountains, deep caves, quiet and stately buildings: these all evoke emotion and may provoke a feeling that we have somehow encountered something numinous.

People are, nonetheless, more than capable of finding the sacred in still less promising locations. The anxious parent praying in a hospital room; the worried student searching for divine help in the exam hall; the desperate man living on the streets: all these do without more apparently pleasing prompts. Indeed, there are faith traditions that positively discourage elaborate art and architecture, fearing that they would distract people from the real purpose of worship, searching for God. For them, plainness and an absence of aesthetic effect are in fact properly religious.

What this suggests is that our notions of sacred space are not universal but very specific and culturally determined. That’s what makes studying those moment in which such attitudes change so very interesting – and revealing. Much of my work is taken up with trying to understand how it is that people can come to understand the material world and religion so differently. The answer tells us much about them and about the culture in which they live.

龔鵬程教授：1905年以前，中國的書院和教堂是合一的，其后也跟您談到的“維多利亞時代神圣空間失落”情況差不多，甚至更慘，不知您關注到了嗎，可相比較嗎？

威廉·懷特教授：現代的許多爭論都取決于如何理解現代性。成為"歷史正確的一方 "的愿望推動了許多變革。

未來將與過去截然不同，但我們又能以某種方式預測它的形式，這種假設支撐著許多決定。盡管我們現在質疑所謂的"現代化理論"，但它的影響是不可否認的——而且在許多地方，直到今天仍然非常強大。

在很大程度上，正是現代性將是世俗化的假設導致了中國學術界的世俗化。人們認為，如果中國要實現現代化，那么它的教育就必須摒棄宗教。類似的沖動也影響了西方的教育。但矛盾的是，這種信念也鼓勵了新教堂的建設。

對現代世界會腐蝕信仰的恐懼，促使許多維多利亞人重新構想他們的禮拜場所。他們想建造能夠抵御世俗化浪潮的教堂：讓人感到與現代世界分離和不同的圣潔之地。

然而，人們并不總是做人們所期望的事；事實上，人們很少這樣做。正如許多人沒有被這些美麗的建筑所吸引一樣，其他人也拒絕世俗化。寫作歷史的最大樂趣，也是最大的挑戰是抓住這些矛盾，準確地傳達過去的真實復雜性。

Many debates in the modern age hinge on how modernity is understood. The desire to be ‘on the right side of history’ drives much change. The assumption that the future will look very different from the past and yet that we can somehow predict its form underwrites a lot of decisions. Although we now question what became known as ‘modernisation theory’, its impact is undeniable – and remains, in many places, remarkably strong to this day.

It was, in large part, the assumption that modernity would be secular that led to the secularization of China’s academies. If China was to modernize, it was thought, then its education needed to eschew religion. Similar impulses affected education in the west. Paradoxically, though, this belief also encouraged the construction of new churches too.

The fear that the modern world was corrosive of faith prompted many Victorians to reimagine their places of worship. They wanted to build churches that would stand against the assumed tide of secularization: holy places that would feel separate and different from the modern world.

People don’t always do what’s expected, however; indeed, the rarely do. Just as many were not enticed by these beautiful buildings, so others refused to secularize. The great fun – and greatest challenge – of writing history is capturing these paradoxes and accurately conveying the true complexity of the past.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規劃城市建設、主題園區等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。