龔鵬程對話海外學者第八十期：在后現(xiàn)代情境中，被技術(shù)統(tǒng)治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續(xù)推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

米瑞安·德瑞森（Miriam Driessen）

牛津大學全球與區(qū)域研究學院（School of Global Area Studies）、東方研究學院（Oriental Institute）碩士生導師，牛津大學“中國、法律與發(fā)展項目”資深研究員。

阿姆斯特丹大學文化人類學與比較社會學學士、柏林理工學院城市文史科碩士、牛津大學人類學博士。

龔鵬程：您好。您的研究，好像集中在工人，而且是移居的打工仔。對于這個群體，熱門的應該是政治、經(jīng)濟問題（就像您寫過書評的《共同進化的實用主義: 中非經(jīng)濟合作的途徑與影響》和《塑造權(quán)力的未來: 中非關系中的知識生產(chǎn)和網(wǎng)絡建設》等等），可是您不太關注這些，而關注日常生活的衣（例如您寫過《中國制造，非洲時尚：埃塞俄比亞和莫桑比克的民族服飾》）、住（例如您寫過《移居非洲:埃塞俄比亞的中國“蝸居者”》、性（例如您寫過《拯救男子氣概：在中國婚姻壓力之下的性別賦予》，甚至語言（例如您的《洋涇浜語：埃塞俄比亞中國建筑工地的語言顛覆》《在非洲做工程項目的中國人的 “吃苦” 與 “訴苦”》）。為什么選擇這個角度？并請介紹一下您最近對中國在亞洲和非洲的勞動力遷移的研究，中國外來務工人員的日常生活是怎樣的？

米瑞安·德瑞森：龔教授，您好。2009 年，我在埃塞俄比亞首都亞的斯亞貝巴讀到了 BBC World 新聞報道中關于中國道路建設者的文章。這是一片很生動的文章，描繪了建設者們的生活和工作方式。這篇報道激發(fā)了我的研究興趣。后來，當我不得不為我的博士項目選擇一個主題時，我再次想起了這個故事。我決定更多地了解選擇移居海外工作的中國道路建設者，包括認證工程師和經(jīng)驗更為豐富的工作者。

2011 年，我前往埃塞俄比亞進行為期一年的實地調(diào)研，其中一部分時間我就住在建筑工地沿線的工人營地。中國大院通常與城鎮(zhèn)分開，非常孤立。一些居民將居住區(qū)比作“監(jiān)獄”，將他們在海外的生活比作“被拘留的時間”。每天的工作枯燥而重復，而孤獨的生活又把時間拉得更長。工作日長達 7 天，工作日至少 10 小時，期間有集體進餐和短暫的午休。到了晚上，工人們回到房間看電視劇，或者在乒乓球室中消遣。在居住區(qū)中的生活也算歡快，因為一群孤獨的男性之間更容易產(chǎn)生共情的心理。事實上，大多數(shù)營地居民都是男性。在我的《苦澀的希望：中國路工在非洲》中，我詳細描述了筑路者在日常工作中所面臨的考驗和磨難。

從一開始，我便對中國工程師和筑路工人移居海外的動機很感興趣。 是什么驅(qū)使這么多男性來到非洲？ 在 1990 年到 2000 年，男性主要依托國內(nèi)建筑公司前往海外目的地。我驚訝地發(fā)現(xiàn)，在中國購置房產(chǎn)或為了抵押貸款是他們移居海外的主要原因。大多數(shù)來自中國農(nóng)村的男性想要進入社會生活，就需要找工作、買房和結(jié)婚。由于無法依靠家人的經(jīng)濟支持，他們自己承擔了購買購置房產(chǎn)的費用。 移居海外使他們省錢很多費用。 他們不僅賺得更多，而且開支也大大減少。 然而，在購買了第一套房產(chǎn)后，許多人留了下來，選擇購買第二套房產(chǎn)，因為成為移民早已成為了一種生活方式。

In 2009 I read a BBC World news article on Chinese road builders in Addis Abeba, the capital of Ethiopia. It was a vivid account, depicting how they lived and worked. It sparked my interest. Later, when I had to choose a topic for my doctoral project I was reminded of the story. I decided to learn more about Chinese road builders, both certified engineers and experienced builders, who had chosen to move overseas for work.

In 2011 I left for Ethiopia for one year of field research, part of which I spent living in workers’ camps along the construction sites. Often set apart from towns, Chinese compounds were quite isolated. Some of the residents compared the camps to prison and their life overseas as time spent in custody. Days were repetitive. Months away from their family proceeded slowly. Weekdays were seven days long, workdays at least ten hours, punctuated by shared meals and an afternoon nap. In the evenings, workers retreated into their rooms to watch tv series or disappeared into the table tennis room to release steam. Social life in the camps was marked by conviviality by virtue by a shared experience of isolation and male bonding. Indeed, most camp residents were men. In my book Tales of Hope, Tastes of Bitterness: Chinese Road Builders in Ethiopia (title in Chinese: 苦澀的希望：中國路工在非洲), I describe in detail the trials and tribulations faced by road builders in their daily working lives.

From the start I was interested in the motivations of Chinese engineers and builders to move overseas. What drove so many men to Africa? In the 1990s and 2000s, it was largely men who accompanied domestic construction firms to overseas destinations. I was surprised to find that many mentioned a house or a mortgage loan as the primary reason for moving overseas. Most men came from rural China and sought to enter society, which required them to find a job, buy a house, and get married. Unable to rely on the financial support of family members they shouldered the costs of purchasing residential property themselves. Moving overseas enabled them to save money. They not only earned more, but had significantly less expenses. However, after buying a first property, many stayed on, opting to buy a second property, as migration became a way of life.

龔鵬程：您從事國際發(fā)展關系中的移民研究，跟您自己“游”的經(jīng)歷有關嗎？你自己作為移民的經(jīng)歷是否影響了你對移民的研究？

米瑞安·德瑞森：我喜歡旅行、體驗不同的生活方式。 這就是我選擇學習人類學的原因。 作為人類學家，我們?nèi)チ私馑巳绾嗡伎肌⑷タ创澜绾腿ンw驗日常生活，同時，為了分析還保持著距離。 人類學家參與他們研究對象的生活，以便更好地掌握決策背后的動機以及研究對象世界觀背后的個人故事和歷史軌跡。 我選擇中國的部分原因，是因為它的社會、語言和文化非常不同。 當然，您在與自己背景不同的國家度過的時間越長，你就發(fā)現(xiàn)人與人本身之間的相似度也就越多。

一方面，我在中國的研究極大地幫助了我了解了中國移民的生活。完成博士項目后，我回到中國以進一步了解了中國移民非洲的根源。只有這樣，我才能更好地理解是什么原因驅(qū)使著這么多的男性來到了非洲。

為了尋找這些根源，我來到了中國農(nóng)村。與我一起工作的大多數(shù)人都來自農(nóng)村。我發(fā)現(xiàn)了更多關于社會經(jīng)濟轉(zhuǎn)型和人口結(jié)構(gòu)變化的信息，這些變化使她們很難買房，并且在沒有諸如房產(chǎn)一類能夠代表一個人地位階級的情況下，大多數(shù)女性也離開了她們一開始所結(jié)婚的地區(qū)。

我還發(fā)現(xiàn)了農(nóng)村到城市的遷移和遷移至海外之間的聯(lián)系。 移居城市和移居海外往往是第二代農(nóng)民工可以考慮和考慮的兩種選擇。 農(nóng)村到城市的遷移，使海外移民和返鄉(xiāng)移民在國內(nèi)變得更加流動。 在中國和埃塞俄比亞之間來往，也幫助我了解了中國的發(fā)展與中國主導的非洲發(fā)展之間的聯(lián)系，以及發(fā)展實踐的傳播。

I love travelling and experiencing different ways of living. This is why I chose to study anthropology. As anthropologists we seek to understand how others think, see the world, and experience their daily lives, while remaining an analytic distance. Anthropologists participate in the lives of the people they study in order to better grasp the motivations behind the decisions the make and the personal stories and historical trajectories behind their worldviews. I chose China in part because its society, language, and culture are very different. Of course, the longer you spend in a country different from your own, the more similarities you see among people too.

For one, my research in China has greatly helped me understand Chinese activities overseas and the lives of Chinese migrants live. After finishing my doctoral project, I returned to China to learn more about the roots of Chinese migration to Africa. Only this way, I though, I could better understand what drove so many men to Africa. The search for these roots brought me to rural China. Most of the men I had worked with came from the countryside. I found out more about the socio-economic transformations and demographic changes that made it challenging for them to buy a house and, without this crucial status marker, get married in regions where most women left or married up.

I also discovered the linkages between rural-to-urban migration and overseas migration. Moving to the city and moving overseas were often two options available to, and considered by, second generation migrant workers. Rural-to-urban migration enables overseas migration and migrant returnees become more mobile at home. Moving between China and Ethiopia has also helped me understand the connections between development in China and Chinese-led development in Africa, and the diffusion of development practices.

龔鵬程：在華南地區(qū)生活和工作的非洲移民人數(shù)近年來不斷增加。這與在中國的非洲移民和在非洲的中國移民有關系嗎？

米瑞安·德瑞森：中國到非洲的移民和非洲到中國的移民，都源于中國的新全球化。中國沿海貿(mào)易中心的許多非洲移民都是商人。他們與中國和非洲的中國同行開展業(yè)務。事實上，許多非洲貿(mào)易商已經(jīng)超越了中國貿(mào)易商，因為他們更熟悉本國的市場和消費者口味，同時也找到了進入中國的途徑。

當中國在 20 世紀后期成為“世界工廠”時，越來越多的商品在非洲市場上銷售，那里的客戶渴望生產(chǎn)廉價但實用且豐富的商品，例如家用電器和衣服。可以肯定的是，非洲客戶長期以來一直在消費中國制造的產(chǎn)品。然而，過去這些商品主要是由歐洲或印度貿(mào)易商等中間商帶到非洲大陸的。當中國在 1980 年代開放時，中國移民開始冒險外出；最初從浙江、福建、廣東等傳統(tǒng)的發(fā)達地區(qū)到東南亞和歐洲更熟悉的地方，后來到非洲。家庭之間，利用國外現(xiàn)有的人際關系網(wǎng)絡，降低了移民的風險。隨著中國商品開始涌入非洲市場，非洲商人也開始想方設法地從事貿(mào)易并冒險進入中國。

然而，正如 Gordon Matthews 所記錄的那樣，在過去幾年，中國的去工業(yè)化導致貿(mào)易活動從中國轉(zhuǎn)移到越南和東南亞其他地方。貿(mào)易商跟隨工廠搬遷到提供廉價勞動力的國家。一些中國產(chǎn)業(yè)已經(jīng)轉(zhuǎn)移到非洲。埃塞俄比亞統(tǒng)計了許多中國制革廠、制鞋商和紡織品生產(chǎn)商。中國企業(yè)家還參與了水泥、膠合板和玻璃等建筑材料的生產(chǎn)。

我的研究，主要集中在參與基礎設施建設項目的中國公民身上。他們與國內(nèi)公司一起搬到埃塞俄比亞。他們的雇主為他們安排一切，從簽證到工作許可，從住房到餐飲，從旅行到娛樂。這些工人中的大多數(shù)人住在宿舍里，并受到了時間上的限制和流動性宿舍勞動制度的約束。他們的經(jīng)歷與移民企業(yè)家明顯不同。

Chinese migration to Africa and African migration to China have both grown out of China’s new globalism. Many African migrants in China’s coastal trading centres are traders. They conduct business with Chinese counterparts in China and Africa. Indeed, many African traders have outcompeted Chinese traders, as they are more familiar with the markets and consumer tastes in their home countries and have meanwhile found their way to China.

When China became the ‘factory of the world’ in the late twentieth century, increasing volumes of commodities were sold in African markets, where customers were hungry for cheaply produced yet practical and often colourful goods, such as household appliances and clothes. To be sure, African customers have long consumed Chinese-made products. However, in the past these commodities were chiefly brought to the African continent by intermediaries, such as European or Indian traders. When China opened up in the 1980s, Chinese migrants started venturing out; initially from traditional sending regions like Zhejiang, Fujian, and Guangdong to more familiar places in South-East Asia and Europe and later to Africa. Families drew on existing networks abroad, making migration less risky. As Chinese commodities started to flood African markets, African traders began to find ways to engage in trading and ventured to China.

In the past few years, however, as Gordon Matthews has documented, deindustrialization in China has led to a shift of trading activities away from China to Vietnam and other places in South-East Asia. The traders follow factories that have relocated to countries that offer cheaper labour. A few Chinese industries have moved to Africa. Ethiopia counts a number of Chinese tanneries and shoe manufacturers and textile producers. Chinese entrepreneurs are also involved in the production of building materials like cement, plywood, and glass.

My research however focuses on Chinese nationals who are attached to infrastructure construction projects. They move to Ethiopia with domestic companies. Their employers arrange everything for them, from visas to work permits, housing to meals, travels to entertainment. Most of these workers live in dormitories and are subject to a dormitory labour regime that restricts their time and mobility. Their experience is markedly different from migrant entrepreneurs.

龔鵬程：當然，您的研究還可能有更大的論題，就像你博士論文的題目：中國勞動力在亞洲和非洲的遷移，或另一個你用過的題目：“躁動的大地：轉(zhuǎn)型中的中國農(nóng)村”， 也就是目前中國“農(nóng)村空缺”的問題。但若要深入分析這樣的大論題，政治和經(jīng)濟問題仍是避不開的，對此，你有何考慮？你未來的研究計劃是什么？ 你認為在亞洲或非洲的中國勞工移民研究中需要進一步探索哪些問題？

米瑞安·德瑞森：我目前在法律和社會領域工作，從事一個新項目的研究：圍繞法院在埃塞俄比亞與中國互動中的作用，揭示了中國企業(yè)在海外面臨的一些挑戰(zhàn)。

自從他們在 1990 年代作為承包商進入該國并在 2000 年代作為投資者進入埃塞俄比亞以來，中國公司面臨著越來越多的埃塞俄比亞原告對他們提起的訴訟，其中包括雇員、項目工地沿線居民、分包商、供應商、房東、銀行和甚至是政府機關，導致中國管理人員感嘆他們在法庭上花費的時間比在建筑工地上花費的時間還多。

是什么導致了法庭案件的激增？法院為埃塞俄比亞和中國的訴訟當事人做了什么？這些是我在最新項目中解決的問題。為此我在埃塞俄比亞法院內(nèi)外進行了實地考察，閱讀了許多法庭案件，并采訪了法官、律師以及埃塞俄比亞和中國的原告人和被告人。

至于在埃塞俄比亞的中國移民，COVID-19 對他們的生活造成了重大破壞，并迫使他們重新考慮未來的前景和個人愿望。2020年全球疫情爆發(fā)后，他們許多人無法回家與家人團聚。機票價格昂貴得令人望而卻步，飛往中國的航班數(shù)量受到限制。其他確實有機會返回中國過年假的人決定留下來。大流行擾亂了國際供應鏈和市場。埃塞俄比亞的一些中國人經(jīng)營的工廠不得不關門，至少是暫時關閉，導致外籍員工和當?shù)貑T工都沒有工作。許多基礎設施項目即將結(jié)束，新項目的招標數(shù)量減少。形勢瞬息萬變，中國移民在非洲及其他地區(qū)的未來充滿不確定性。COVID-19 對非洲中國移民生活的真正影響仍不清楚，未來可能值得研究。

I am currently working within the field of law and society. I started a new project in which I look at the role of the courts in Ethiopian-Chinese interactions, revealing some of the challenges that Chinese enterprises face overseas. Since they entered the country as contractors in the 1990s and as investors in the 2000s, Chinese firms have faced a growing number of lawsuits brought against them by Ethiopian plaintiffs, including employees, residents along project sites, subcontractors, suppliers, landlords, banks, and even government organs, leading Chinese managers to lament that they spend more time in the courtroom than on the construction site. What has led to this surge in court cases? And what do the courts do for Ethiopian and Chinese litigants? These are the questions I address in my latest project, for which I conducted fieldwork in and around Ethiopian courts, read numerous court cases, and interviewed judges, lawyers, and Ethiopian and Chinese disputants.

As for the Chinese migrants in Ethiopia, COVID-19 has caused major disruptions to their lives and forced them to reconsider future prospects and personal aspirations. Many of them were unable to return home and reunite with their families for more than two years following the outbreak of the global pandemic in 2020. Airfares were prohibitively expensive and the number of flights to China was restricted. Others who did get the chance to return to China for the annual break decided to stay. The pandemic has disrupted international supply chains and markets. Some Chinese-run factories in Ethiopia had to close doors, at least temporarily, leaving both expatriate and local staff without work. Many infrastructure projects are coming to an end and fewer tenders are going out for new projects. The situation is changing rapidly, and the future of Chinese migrants in Africa and beyond is uncertain. The real impact of COVID-19 on the lives of Chinese migrant in Africa is still unclear and might be interesting to study in the future.

龔鵬程：你曾在廈門和上海生活過15個月，做研究；在北京、貴州又生活了兩年。你在中國學習和做研究給你留下了哪些回憶?

米瑞安·德瑞森：貴州的鄉(xiāng)村給我留下了最深刻的回憶。我住在一個山村的宅基地里，只有一條需要一個多小時的陡峭攀登的山路與外界連接著。大多數(shù)居民已經(jīng)搬出村莊，在山谷或附近的城鎮(zhèn)定居。一些家庭留下來見證大自然慢慢接管鄰居的田地。樹木和雜草覆蓋了他們的地塊或者墳墓。

在貴州，我領略了轉(zhuǎn)型中的中國農(nóng)村，以及向外遷移對人、動物和植被的深遠影響。我享受鄉(xiāng)村生活。然而，鄰居們敦促隨行的人把我?guī)Щ爻抢铮灰僮屛以卩l(xiāng)下“吃苦頭”。早上，我?guī)椭用駹恐Ｈド缴系哪翀觥Ｎ覍W會了爬山，也發(fā)現(xiàn)了犁地是一件多么累的事情。山里的食物很好吃，豬肉從來沒有像這里一樣好吃，因為這些豬以家庭種植的蔬菜和天然的東西所喂養(yǎng)。

除了在中國的經(jīng)歷，我還有在埃塞俄比亞經(jīng)歷的“中國”的記憶。在實地考察期間，我花了很多時間與中國移民一起生活。我記得在埃塞俄比亞北部農(nóng)村的麥田中度過了中國新年。飯廳的屏幕上正在播放著春節(jié)聯(lián)歡晚會，墻上和天花板上都掛著五顏六色的氣球和對聯(lián)。每個人都很熱鬧。然而，那天電話網(wǎng)絡已經(jīng)中斷。一些中國大院的居民為了能夠聯(lián)系到中國的家人，辛苦地駕車行駛了 100 公里。晚上，我們玩游戲、吃喝、放鞭炮，嚇壞了當?shù)剞r(nóng)民。這是異國環(huán)境中的慶祝活動。它給我的印象是美麗的，但也令人不安。

My stay in rural Guizhou has left me with the most profound memories. I lived in a homestead in a mountain village that could only be reached by a steep climb of more than an hour. Most residents had moved out of the village and settled in the valley or in the nearby town. A few families stayed behind to witness nature taking over the fields of neighbours. Trees now covered their plots and weeds the graves of family members. In Guizhou I was offered a taste of rural China in transition and the far-reaching consequences of outmigration and its consequences for people, animals, and vegetation. I enjoyed rural life. Neighbours however urged my host to bring be back to the city and no longer have me ‘eat bitterness’ in the countryside. In the mornings, I helped lead the water buffalo the grazing pastures higher up the mountain. I learned to climb, and discovered how heavy ploughing is. The food on top of the mountain was delicious. Pork has never tasted as well as here. The pigs were fed on vegetables grown by the family and natural waste.

Apart from memories of experiences in China, I also have memories from the ‘China’ I experienced in Ethiopia. During fieldwork I spent a good amount of time living with Chinese migrants. I recall spending Chinese New Year in a camp, perched amidst fields of wheat in rural northern Ethiopia. The Spring Festival Gala was playing on screen in the dining hall, where the walls and ceiling were decorated with colourful balloons and festive couplets. Everyone was boisterous. Yet the telephone network had been down that day. Some Chinese compound residents had, in vain, travelled up to 100 kilometres by car in order to be able to reach family members in China. In the evening, we played games, ate, drank, and set of firecrackers, with which we scared local farmers. It was a bubble of festivities in a foreign environment. It struck me as beautiful, but also unsettling.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規(guī)劃城市建設、主題園區(qū)等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現(xiàn)為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。