龔鵬程對話海外學者第七十六期：在后現代情境中，被技術統治的人類社會，只有強化交談、重建溝通倫理，才能獲得文化新生的力量。這不是誰的理論，而是每個人都應實踐的活動。龔鵬程先生遊走世界，并曾主持過“世界漢學研究中心”。我們會陸續推出“龔鵬程對話海外學者”系列文章，請他對話一些學界有意義的靈魂。范圍不局限于漢學，會涉及多種學科。以期深山長谷之水，四面而出。

Julia Duque-Lloredo （茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜）

倫敦大學學院（UCL）研究員

龔鵬程：你好。你能描述一下您的研究領域嗎？你認為在您的領域中最令人興奮的一些進展是什么？你的研究主要目標是什么，你能描述一下幾個重要的應用嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：龔教授，您好。我的研究，集中在組織力學方面。我們認為細胞是我們身體的第一個組織單位。下一級是（身體）組織，它由一組細胞組成，這些細胞通常是同類的，由不同的蛋白質組連接在一起。有些人研究單個細胞的力學，但從力學的角度來講，我對上皮組織的整體行為感興趣。更具體地說，我對上皮組織如何應對斷裂的過程感興趣。

例如，在胚胎的發育過程中，組織會受到不同力源，從而不得不承受壓力和變形，這促使下一個發育階段能夠正常實現。另一個例子是我們的皮膚，皮膚是我們對所有的外部病原體的第一道主要保護屏障。

我很多工作都致力于了解在細胞膜下的一層的張力是什么。我所說的這層被稱為細胞皮層，它是由不同的蛋白質組成的網狀結構，這些蛋白質共同作用于細胞的形狀，這反過來又為它們提供了承受力量的來源。

這項研究已被擴展到組織力學上。在這個層面上，必須考慮到將細胞連接在一起的第二組蛋白質：負責在組織中傳遞力量的蛋白質。然而，斷裂的過程是一個多尺度的問題，我們在研究它時面臨的一個巨大挑戰是：如何在不同的尺度（分子、細胞、組織水平）之間架起橋梁，以及有非常少的對于從理論角度對斷裂發生的非線性機制（在軟組織中）的研究。

我對這個項目的目標，是了解支配上皮組織（如皮膚）斷裂過程的機械參數，同時，對其進行生化鑒定。有幾個原因讓我覺得這真的很有趣：第一，了解并確定組織在形成傷口之前能承受多少力；第二，為了防止某些疾病，控制細胞形狀和承載力的機械會被破壞。了解機械參數和分子過程是這些事件的基礎，可能有助于闡明如何預防、逆轉或減少帶來的影響。

My research area focuses on tissue mechanics. We could consider that cells are the first unit of organization of our bodies. The next level of organization are tissues, which consist of group of cells, normally of the same kind, that are linked together by different groups of proteins. Some people study the mechanics of individual cells, but I am interested in the global behavior of epithelial tissues from a mechanical point of view. More specifically, I’m interested in how epithelial tissues respond to the process of fracture. For example, during the development of an embryo, tissues are subjected to different sources of force and deformation that must be withstand so that the next developmental stage can be properly achieved. Another example is our skin, which is the main first protection barrier we have against any external pathogen.

A lot of work within my field has been devoted to understanding what is the tension of a layer that underlies the membrane of cells has. This layer I am talking about is called the cortex of cells and it is a meshwork of different proteins which work together to give shape to the cells, which in turn, provides them with the sources to withstand forces. These studies have been extended to tissues mechanics. At this level, a second group of proteins involved in linking cells together must be taken into account: the ones responsible of transmitting the forces across the tissue. However, the process of fracture is a multi scale problem and one of the big challenges that we are facing to understand it is to bridge the different scales (molecular, cellular, tissue level) together with the fact that the non-linear regime at which fracture occurs (in soft tissues) has been very poorly studied from a theoretical point of view.

My goals for this project are to understand the mechanical parameters that govern the process of fracture in epithelial tissues (like the skin) together with a biochemical characterization of it. This is really interesting for different reasons: first, to understand and characterize how much force tissues can withstand before creating a wound and second, to prevent some type of illnesses where the machinery that controls the shape of the cells and is able to load force is disrupted. The understanding of what mechanical parameters and molecular processes underlie these types of events might help to shed some light on how to prevent, revert or decrease their effect.

龔鵬程：你研究中使用幾種不同的方法，例如設計細胞生物學實驗、使用遺傳工具、圖像分析和數據分析，這令人印象深刻。你能描述一下你在研究過程中使用的最重要的方法和工具嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：我想說的是，所有這些方法對于正確理解我們研究的問題都很重要。一旦我們有了想要解決的問題，首先要做的就是設計相應的實驗。

我對兩種主要類型的結果感興趣。一方面，我想確定上皮組織在破裂前所能承受的力和變形。為了做到這一點，我們需要在一個特定的裝置中培養組織，使我們能夠在實驗中測量力。同時，這個裝置上有一個攝像頭，我們可以用它來記錄組織層面上的斷裂演變。

另一方面，我想知道在細胞水平上正在發生什么。為了做到這一點，我們有相比之前具有更高分辨率的顯微鏡。在這種情況下，我們使用的是共焦顯微鏡，它允許我們擁有微米級的分辨率（比方說，一個細胞的大小約為10微米），這樣我們就可以看到細胞內發生的事情。

不僅如此，我還會做熒光顯微鏡。這意味著我們能夠觀察到細胞內的特定蛋白質和成分，因為這些成分之前已經被貼上了熒光標簽；用適當波長的激光照射，可以讓我們看到它們。

一旦我們收集了所謂的“原始數據”，我們就需要對其進行分析。我們在尋找一些模式，我們試圖看看它們是否遵循著某種類型的趨勢，一個特定的規律等等。一旦數據分析完了，我們就進行統計測試，看看各組或各條件之間是否有任何明顯的差異。

I would say that all these methods are important to get a proper understanding of the questions we have.

Once we have the questions we want to tackle, the first thing to do is to design the experiment accordingly. In my case, I am interested in two main type of results. On the one hand, I want to determine the forces and deformations that epithelial tissues can be subjected to before they rupture. In order to do this, we need to grow the tissues in a specific set up that allows us to measure the force during the experiment. At the same time, there is a camera attached to this set up with which we can record the evolution of fracture at the tissue level. On the other hand, I want to know what is happening at the cellular level. In order to do this, we have microscopes with higher resolution than the previous one I was mentioning. In this case, we use a confocal microscope that allows us to have a resolution of micrometres (let’s say that the size of a cell is around 10 micrometres) so that we can see what is happening inside the cells. Not only this, but also I do fluorescence microscopy. What this means is that we are able to look at specific proteins and components inside the cells. This is possible because these components have been previously labelled with a fluorescent tag; shining a laser with the adequate wavelength, will allow us to look at them. Once we have collected what we call the raw data, we need to analyse it. We look for some patterns, we try to see if they follow any type of trend, a specific law, etc. Once the data is analysed, we run statistical tests to see whether or not there is any significant difference between groups or conditions.

龔鵬程：對于考慮從事細胞生物學或生物物理學的學生，最重要的技能是什么？ 你對他們有什么建議嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：這個問題比較難回答。通常，我認為需要一些生物或者物理學背景。

一般來說，我覺得從物理、數學或工程學背景過渡到生物背景，要比其他專業背景容易一些。不過只要你對自己追求的事情，喜歡并有濃厚的興趣，就沒有什么事情是不能改變的。隨著你的進步，你可以逐漸往其他方面發展。

以我為例，我本科專業是物理學，因為我非常喜歡數學，它可以作為解決現實生活中問題的工具。但我也一直被醫學所吸引，所以我轉向了生物學。

我最終將這兩個學科結合起來，但這并不是我以前的計劃。當我決定要學習物理學時，是因為從我高中老師的授課方式來看，我認為自己更象是一名物理老師，而不是生物老師。在那個時候，我總是喜歡用數學來解決問題，而不是學習生物。

我開始讀博士時，我對蒼蠅遺傳學一無所知，我是邊學邊做的。這個是關于你愿不愿意去了解你所遇到的問題。如果你有什么不懂，要么你學習，要么你問別人，要么你去和別人合作。

現在，我們自己提出的大多數問題都需要來自多個學科的方法來解決，所以合作成為我們做得越來越多的事情（例如，私人公司將其業務的某些部分外包，我們去合作，我們有一個共同的出版物）。最后我發現，大多數時候，科學家都是問題解決者。當然，我們并不是什么都知道，但很多時候，如果我們遇到自己不知道的東西，我們會找到方法去理解它。

This is a difficult question. In general, I would say you need some type of biological/physics background. In general, I have the feeling is easier to transition from a physics/maths/engineer background towards a biological one than the other way around. However, nothing is written in gold as long as you have an avid interest in pursuing what you like to do. Then, you develop the rest as you progress. In my case, for example, I did my undergraduate in Physics, because I really liked maths, and the tools it provided to solve problems in real life. At the same time, I was always attracted to Medicine so that’s why I moved towards Biology. I’ve ended up combining both of them, but it was not something previously planned. When I decided I wanted to study Physics it was because I was seeing myself more as a Physic teacher than a Biology one just from the way my high school teachers where giving their lessons. At that time, I always preferred solving problems with maths than having to study Biology…

When I started my PhD I knew nothing about fly genetics and I learnt as I was doing it. It’s a matter of being willing to understand the questions you have. If you don’t know something, either you learn it, you ask someone else or you collaborate. Nowadays, most of the questions we pose ourselves need from a multidisciplinary approach so collaboration is something that we do more and more (as, for example, private companies outsource some part of their business, we collaborate and we have a shared publication). In the end I find that, most of the times, scientists are problem-solvers. For sure we don’t know everything, but many times, if we don’t know something on our own, we will find the way to understand it.

龔鵬程：對女科學家地位的討論越來越多。作為一名女科學家，你如何看待女科學家的角色和地位，她們具體面臨哪些挑戰？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：科學界的女性，面臨著大多數女性在任何其他類型的工作中所面臨的問題之一，就是她們所占據的高級職位數量很少。大多數高級職位主要由男性占據，這與歷史有直接關系，因為我們習慣于在這些級別上看到男性而不是女性，最終，導致了改變這種情況會感覺不舒服。

平均來說，女性在生命科學研究領域的水平要高于男性，而這一點就更加引人注目了。然而，當你的位置越高，涉及到成為小組領導或教授時，這種情況就會倒置。這是我們社會應該重新考慮的問題。

如今，在一些地方，我們可以看到對婦女有積極歧視 (積極歧視是指你優待具有受保護特征的人，但不是因為他們的能力)；這是第一步，但我們不應該只停留在這個層面。在許多情況下，這只是為了給某個大學或機構一個好的形象而做的事情。事情必須從更早的階段進行改變。我們應該從消除我們強加給孩子的標準化的性別角色模型開始。為什么一個女孩不能成為物理學家？為什么她不能在工作中領導一個團隊？這一切背后的真正問題是什么？

還有一點需要考慮的是，從歷史上看，婦女負責照顧孩子。這一點與我上面解釋的并不相悖。科學是一項要求很高的工作，當需要照顧孩子的時候，如果伴侶不是很愿意分擔的話，可能就會有點困難。然而，我相信這不應該僅僅局限于父母，一些機構在這方面也應該有發言權。

I think women in science face one of the problems that most women have in any other type of job, and this is the little number of high-level positions they occupy. The fact that most of high positions are largely occupied by men is something directly related to history in the sense that we are used to rather see men than women at these levels and in the end, changing this it is uncomfortable.

This is even more striking when you realise that, on average, there is a higher level of women in life science studies than men. However, as you go higher in the hierarchy, when it comes to become a group leader/professor, this value gets inverted. This is something that we, as a society, should reconsider. Nowadays in some places we can see that there is a positive discrimination towards women; this is a very first step, but we should not remain just at that level. In many occasions it is something done just to give a good appearance to a certain university or institution. Things must change from a very early stage. We should start by removing the standardize role models that we impose to our children. Why a girl cannot become a Physicist? Why can’t she be in charge of a group of people at work? What is the real problem behind all this?

Also something to take into account which is not separated from what I’ve explained above, is the fact that women are the ones that also historically, have been the ones in charge of their children. Science is a very demanding job that, when childcare comes into place, might be a bit difficult to combine if the corresponding partner is not very willing to share it. I believe however that it should not be something just constrained to the parents, but that the institutions should have a say at this respect.

龔鵬程：你曾在西班牙、布魯塞爾、加利福尼亞工作和學習，現在你已經在倫敦工作了5年。你能說一說你是怎么來到倫敦？你以前去過亞洲國家嗎？你會考慮在一個亞洲國家工作一段時間嗎？

茱莉亞·杜克-勞瑞杜：我讀博士期間，我的職位可以讓我在國外的實驗室進行實習和工作。我申請了兩個地方，一個在芝加哥，另一個在倫敦。但我覺得芝加哥有點遠，我更愿意留在歐洲。另外，在芝加哥，我的課題是從計算角度出發去研究生物學，而在倫敦，我將使用不同的模型系統去做研究，為此我極為癡迷。因此，我決定來到倫敦，準確地說是來到我現在工作的實驗室。

總的來說，這是一個非常好的經歷。實驗室里的人對我很好，我也喜歡倫敦這座城市。我來自西班牙的馬德里，那里足夠大，但沒有倫敦那么大。在UCL實驗室里有更多的自由，這也是我非常喜歡的。

在我博士論文完成前，我有一個很好的機會，在波士頓附近的MBL做了個為期6周的課程。我參加了不同的項目，并有機會認識不同的小組和成員。其中一個是我在加州理工學院的小組。在我博士畢業后，我還考慮過申請在那里做博士后，但我發現加州離我的家人太遠了。因此，在我完成博士學業的時，我決定至少要在研究領域繼續呆久一點，這是我還留在倫敦UCL這個實驗室的原因。當時我只打算呆一小段時間，結果現在已經呆超過4年了。

我從來沒有去過亞洲，但我很想去看看。對我來說，亞洲是一個很大的未知數，因為我發現它真的很大。所以，我想國家之間一定有很多差異。我想我應該可以在一些國家工作一段時間，但不是所有的國家，也不是一直在那里工作。我不希望離西班牙很遠，因為那里有我的家人。

During my PhD, my fellowship allowed me to do an internship in a laboratory abroad. I applied to two places, one in Chicago and another one in London. At that time I found that Chicago was maybe a bit far and I rather preferred to stay in Europe (–at that time!–). Also, the topic I would be working on Chicago was developmental Biology from a computational side of view whereas in London I was going to be using a different model system, which is something that really attracted me at that time. Hence, I decided to come to London, precisely to the lab I am working at the moment.

In general, it was a really good experience. The people in the lab were very nice to me, and I liked the city. I was coming from Madrid –Spain– which is big enough but not as much as London. Here I had more freedom in the lab and it was something I really enjoyed as well. Before the end of my PhD I had the big opportunity of doing a 6-week course at the MBL an institution near Boston. I took part on different projects and had the opportunity to meet different groups. One of them was the group I was with at Caltech, just after finishing my PhD. I think I could have applied for a postdoc there but I found that California was too far away from my family. So then, by the time I was finishing my PhD, I decided I wanted to continue in research for at least a bit longer and one of my main options was this lab in London (a bit longer has been now over 4 years!).

I have never been to Asia but I would love to visit it. For me it is a big unknown as I find it really big and so, I guess there are many differences between countries. I could work for some time in some countries (not all of them for sure) but it would be for a fixed time. In the end, I don’t want to be very far away from Spain which is where my family lives.

龔鵬程，1956年生于臺北，臺灣師范大學博士，當代著名學者和思想家。著作已出版一百五十多本。

辦有大學、出版社、雜志社、書院等，并規劃城市建設、主題園區等多處。講學于世界各地。并在北京、上海、杭州、臺北、巴黎、日本、澳門等地舉辦過書法展。現為中國孔子博物館名譽館長、美國龔鵬程基金會主席。